Sorry… the above rock-n-roll blip was uncalled for… in any case, here’s some info from Jon (harvested from BA) at Stub & Herb’s about some changes with Stub & Herb’s and local beer. The first few paragraphs resonate heavily with the MNBeer crowd. The latter will likely ruffle some feathers. Though we don’t necessarily agree 100% with what Jon has to say (though we applaud the focus on local beer 100%), these are his words in their entirety & you can form you own opinions. Cheers!
I am about to make some changes that may make some of you unhappy. We have worked really hard at Stub’s to turn our place into a haven of great American craft beers over the last three years. It has been a blast. However, now there are many great beer bars that do a fantastic job of supporting craft beer in our community.
When we made our change a few years back it was a goal of mine to support local beer as well as craft beer. Somewhere along the line, I strayed from my commitment to the local guys. We have not supported breweries like Summit, Flat Earth and Brau Brothers to the degree that I think we should. In the last few months, all of the breweries that I just mentioned have stepped up their game by offering products that continue to get better and more consistent. All of the local breweries deserve more support from us at Stub’s.
From now on, you can expect to see more locally produced beer at Stub’s and less of the other great American craft brands that are available in our market. I am sure that this commitment will mean that I will no longer be on the short list of bars that is considered for some of the limited availability kegs that come into MN. Usually, not supporting a brewery’s everyday brands costs you when the specialty stuff comes available. I realize that having specialty and hard to find kegs at Stub’s is how I made friends on this site. I am sure some of you will be disappointed with my decision. I apologize; however, I know the struggles of operating a small, local business. I will be happier watching Stub and Herb’s dollars being spent to support companies that employ local people, use local resources and give us a reason to be proud of the fact that we are Minnesotans.
I want to make clear that my new commitment will be to quality, local beer. Some of the local guys make some real stinkers! I will not buy bad beer just because it is local. I will also not buy beer from companies that sell themselves as MN-made and produce their products in other states. I have seen the look of disappointment in quite a few customers faces when I get asked where the Fulton Brewery is located (Because the answer is WI). I don’t have time for businessmen when there are some actual breweries trying to establish themselves in my community.
Sorry for the rant. I just wanted you guys to hear it from me first.
Clean up the bathrooms and we’ll talk.
Harumph. Like it’s sooooo hard to find Summit anywhere else in town…
One thing that I’ll miss is that Stubs always had a great selection of Bell’s that I wouldn’t see anywhere else on tap. I think that will be my main disappointment.
Is Brau Bros really local? Minnesotan, no doubt, but local? I think Lucan and Black River Falls, WI are both about the same distance from Mpls. I admire what Stub’s is doing, but why call out Fulton?
One door is closed so another may be opened. This may put Stub & Herbs on short list for more exclusive and special beers from local breweries. Flat Earth loves Stub & Herbs!
Harumph, indeed RMA. That means more yummy Summit for the rest of us who can enjoy a well crafted beer without being an elitist.
You can find EPA everywhere, but Horizon, Oatmeal Stout, hefe, casks, etc aren’t as common. More power to Stubbies. Lame to dig on Fulton but a good move with everything else. I’d call all mn made beers local, Brau included
HT, that’s a pretty good point. It’s pretty easily to delineate along state borders, but the reality is that local, in many ways, has nothing to do with borders. I applaud, conceptually, what Jon’s doing. However, I think the exclusion of Fulton, for example, is unfortunate. To my knowledge, and maybe others know better, Fulton DOES represent a group of guys “trying to establish themselves in [your] community.” Heck, under this definition, Lift Bridge wouldn’t have been served at Sturb’s a year ago, but today it would be. And those guys have since purchased land in Minnesota and are building their brewery here. Their ability to, at some point, crank out tasty, local beer was dependent on a business plan that had them brewing beer in ‘Sconie for a while. But hey, whatever. I think this is still an interesting step for the place to take.
Mag – if memory serves, the Lift Bridge boys were making their beer at Flat Earth last year. I think they went to Point for bottling.
Lift Bridge is up in Cold Spring now.
The minute Fulton comes out with a good beer I will put it on tap. So far they haven’t. Contract brewed or not, I don’t believe they really know what they are doing. However, I am biased since I have had 2 if their casks explode in my face.
I won’t sell bad beer just because the guys who make it are nice guys.
@Jon after all this I would be surprised if Fulton let you, even though they are nice guys.
I respect your decision to support MN brews and look forward to visiting your new line up. But these issues may be better received on a less public forum IMO.
@ Dave H.
I’m sorry to see Fulton being called-out for their lack of experience with (in particular) Cask, as I like their Sweet Child, but they are a corporation now, and not a not-for-profit, Co-Op™, or homebrewer. I agree with J.L. and Kristen that they need to work on their chops.
Still, “Sweet Child of Vine” is at least as nice as Bubblejack, and there’s plenty of room in the local market for another IPA as easy-going as that one ; )
I’ve heard tell that Misseur Landers wished to ‘shake things up’ a bit with his post at Beer Advocate, and it appears that he has done so in spades.
Sorry Lanny, but methinks that Jon wins this round on a technicality ; )
Hell yeah Jon! F the naysayers. This accomplishes two great things for the MN beer scene in my opinion. One, it forges another trendsetting path for a fantastic craft beer bar (really the best in the TC based on price, service, specials, food). By buying local, I’m pretty sure Stubs already typicall great prices can get even better.
Two, it calls on the local brewers to step their games up. Jon’s right, there may be a substantial boom in local beers, but most are lackluster and haven’t deserved tap space next to a Bell’s or Founder’s, for example. So now we have a local beer figure calling out the local brewer’s for their current performance and meanwhile placing more of those exact brewer’s beers(and potential new creations) on tap…Who wins…All the beer drinkers.
Cheers to beers all.
My name is Ryan Petz, and I’m President and one of the four co-founders of Fulton. There’s been a lot said about our company in this thread, so we thought it would be only fair to add our own input.
First, we understand Stub & Herb’s move to the all-Minnesota lineup. It’s too bad that Fulton can’t be a part of that, but we understand the reasoning, and we’re not about to tell anyone else how to run their business.
It’s true that we don’t yet brew in Minnesota, but we have never tried to mislead anybody on that fact. Since before we even launched, we’ve stated on our website that we are contract brewers, and we readily explain it when we meet people in person.
The fact is, breweries are really, really expensive to build. As much as we wanted to brew out of Minneapolis from day one, we didn’t have nearly enough money behind us to pursue that option. We started Fulton on virtually no budget, and we all still hold day jobs to support our families. So for Fulton, it was–and remains–contract brewing or not brewing at all. We’re very fortunate to have found Sand Creek, which is one of the few craft contract breweries out there. No, it’s not in Minneapolis, but our roots are, our garage R&D brewery is, and our future production brewery will be. We live here and, we support local bars and restaurants and breweries and charities. And when we wake up at 3 am to drive to Black River Falls to brew, we wake up in Minneapolis. There’s nothing we’d love more than to walk our fans through our Minneapolis brewery, but until the day we can, we’re trying to get out and meet people and tell our story as often as possible. Fortunately, most people understand our situation, and are excited for the day we open our brewery doors in Minneapolis.
We’ve never claimed to be the most experienced professional brewers, but we are extremely proud of our beers, and we’re thrilled that quite a few other people seem to like them too. That said, they’re not for everybody, and we never expected them to be. Whether they like our beers or not, most people in the beer community have been overwhelmingly supportive of our effort to contribute to Minnesota beer. Each day we’re still in business brings us a little closer to our founding vision of building a brewery in the heart of Minneapolis, and we’re looking forward to pouring beers there for all the great people we’ve met in the Minnesota beer community.
We’re easy to get in touch with if you’d like to know more about our company. You can send us a message through our website, Facebook, or Twitter, or email me directly at ryan@fultonbeer.com. Or, come out to one of our events and chat over a beer.
Another ill advised business decision, no wonder 80% of restaurants and bars go out of business. Oh I forgot the Goofers are going to play futbal near there. That should keep you busy one day a week.
Sounds like a case of Xenophobia to me.
John wrote:
“The minute Fulton comes out with a good beer I will put it on tap. So far they haven’t. Contract brewed or not, I don’t believe they really know what they are doing. However, I am biased since I have had 2 if their casks explode in my face.
I won’t sell bad beer just because the guys who make it are nice guys.”
FINALLY someone with some balls who can call a spade a spade
John, I love it. God job.
While the Child of Vine is OK everything else I’ve had by Fulton has been garbage I would not cross the street to drink if it was free.
The so-called RIS was a bad porter.
The coffee RIS was undrinkable. Way too much coffee.
Ryan says: “We’ve never claimed to be the most experienced professional brewers”
Dude, take your RIS and taste it next to Expedition and Old Rasputin and Darkness and Dark Lord and tell me you’re even in the same ball park. Be honest.
What do you claim to be? What…we’re supposed to cut you slack because your beer is adequate? Good enough? Somewhat average?
I try every new local beer, but I won’t anything just because it’s local if it’s not good.
It’s long past time to shed the BS Minnesota Nice facade about local beer.
It’s your livlihood, yeah, but it’s my hard-earned dollar that I’m going to spend wisely.
Rich: “Another ill advised business decision”
Ill advised to not server crappy beer?
Talking shit and not even signing your name is a product of Minnesota nice, too.
Expedition and Rasputin are good examples of RIS but Dark Lord and Darkness are way too sweet.
Not serving crap beer is a good business move, airing dirty laundry on the web ain’t.
OK Mark. Like Mark tells anyone anything…which Mark is that now….?
And I agree about the too sweet comment, still at least they’re imperial and stouty.
Beerdude…I doubt you’ve actually worked ‘hard’ for a dollar in a long time. 🙂
I do, however, agree with you. Every time I try a Fulton beer it reminds we of that Simpsons episode where Homer buys a cowbell off Ebay. Looks more or less fine and then it just falls apart. I don’t really think its their fault. The people at Sand Creek need to do a much better job at quality control as their own stuff is pretty horrid. It was anyway last time I rolled through last year…
Re beerdude’s comments…I don’t think its talking shit to say that a beer is crap, when it most definitely is, and she shouldn’t spend her hard earned dollar.
I’ve judged pretty much every MN beer, blindly mind you, and Fulton consistently finishes near the bottom. They simply need to do better. I don’t think people understand that the quality of their beer is definitely not a reflection of the brewers character as all of the Fulton guys I’ve met have been nothing but classy.
I like the idea of serving more local beers. Though some people won’t, I can appreciate S&H’s wanting to support the local scene.
However, why is it necessary to specifically single out Fulton? That is just plain hateful. And why stop there? Why not call out every beer from an MN (oh, sorry, MN and Wisconsin) brewery that isn’t good enough to make the cut?
Goddamn, that is some cold shit right there.
njg-
Hate has nothing to do with it. Zero.
I don’t know the Fulton guys at all. I applaud their effort, but effort isn’t good enough. If I lie and say good job when it isn’t then they don’t have the chance to improve.
As I said Child of Vine is OK. Not an IPA in my book, but the RIS. Sorry, guys. Major league fail.
Maybe it’s Sand Creek and the contract process…but Sam Adams is contract brewed by Miller, I think….so that does work.
If a brewer wants respect brewing simply isn’t enough. You need to make good beer.
It’s really tiresome that some people can’t just admit some beer isn’t that good. And even more tiresome when real honest feedback get tagged as hate.
C’mon, njg (and who is njg BTW, Mark? Why not rag on all the ambiguous names?) not cold at all. Sometimes it’s hard to hear the truth.
At least someone is willing to call out Fulton beer for what it is. Sweet Child of Vine is a average IPA at best, and Worthy Adversary was very disappointing to me. I’ve had Imperial Stouts that weren’t my favorite because I found them too soy saucy etc., but at least they had a flavor at all. Just because a company was started by some local guys doesn’t mean everyone should automatically love it and that you shouldn’t be able to voice your opinion about it, whether positive or negative.
I personally have rarely had a Flat Earth beer that did not have somewhat of an off flavor. I have friends that agree. I’ve had it from many different bars and even the brewery itself and its almost always there. In contrast the couple times I’ve had Child of the Vine it has at least been clean. Maybe I don’t think it is the best IPA ever (that is a recipe discussion), but it is clean and I can drink it.
But back to the topic at hand, I admit I am little sad about this. And it probably will decrease the frequency with which I visit Sterbs. I love the place and the selection, and have always enjoyed Jon. I don’t know how often I will want to go there to drink local stuff when I can get that many other places.
Hopefully there will be sufficient reason – rare offerings like casks or other special release, to draw us back.
Either way, I respect the courage to make a move like this, and I support it in theory. I just don’t know if I will support it with dollars.
Don O
I agree with the majority of this thread that brewers aren’t going to improve on their product unless they get honest criticism. It’s not personal, we *want* the beer to be good, but, if it isn’t, wouldn’t you like to know so you can do something about it? How you respond to criticism shows your professionalism above almost anything else (Fulton made a good start in this thread by not getting overly defensive). Most people who like beer aren’t going to maliciously attack someone who is trying their best to brew it and get started. However, they’re going to be honest and tell the brewers what they think, rather than just smile and sip something sub-par because it’s from MN.
Dave-
Great post. Especially that bit about professionalism and the ability to take legitimate criticism.
beerdude- You missed my point. Why does Fulton get called out, out all the local breweries? (And by “local”, I mean “local”. Sand Creek may not be in the Twin Cities, but it’s not in Idaho.) Do you know how many shitty/sort of shitty/okay at best beers are brewed in MN or contract brewed in Wisconsin?! (And notice that I didn’t say a THING about what I thought of Fulton’s beer. Not a single thing, good or bad.)
Unfortunately, “hate” is the right word. It’s unprofessional and unnecessary to put this out in a public forum. Fulton will lose business because of this (that is a FACT), and I have to assume Jon was very much aware of that.
And your response will probably be “Well, they should brew better beers and this wouldn’t happen, I hate their RIS” (which you’ve now mentioned 3 separate times), but the fact of the matter is, if it was some sort of “challenge” to Fulton, then what is the benefit of telling everyone on BA? Why not just talk with the Fulton guys personally and professionally and say that?
You, beerdude, AND me ultimately have no control over whether Fulton succeeds or fails. We’re just 2 people. Opinions are great, it’s fantastic you think their Sweet Child of Vine is OK and their RIS is…wait, I can’t remember. But Jon holds sway in this scene, and he made a calculated move to hate on Fulton, and for whatever reason that is (that 2 casks they had exploded on him?), THAT is some cold shit.
I drink what I like to drink. One factor influencing what I like is the personalities of the people involved. Because Fulton’s Sweet Child of Vine is good enough and because I like the Fulton people, I regularly drink Sweet Child of Vine. The same goes for Lift Bridge’s Farm Girl. It is not the best saison on the market but it tastes good enough for me and I like the Lift Bridge crew.
Dave MN stated that “brewers aren’t going to improve on their product unless they get honest criticism”. I agree. However, is it honest criticism when a beer is called crap? What’s a brewer supposed to do? Go back to the brewery and look for a mouse that’s been shitting on the grain bags? Those of you who want the brewers to improve their products should reconsider how you go about giving “honest advice.”
@Scott McGerik
Good point, “crap” is not very helpful in terms of finding out how to improve. Maybe it can be a jumping off point (albeit a slightly cruel one) for further discussion of what makes the beer “crap”. Wishful thinking, I suppose. However, if I were a local brewer trying to make good in that business, I would want to learn from the customers that have tried to support me, but have decided that they can’t due to quality/character of my product. What may start with “crap” could really turn into a growth experience for Fulton and any other brewer that is struggling to make inroads in a state that is beginning to make some really good beer.
njg-
Oh…yeah…I see…I did miss your point.
On the other hand, I’m guessing here, but Sterbs seems to want to serve good local beer…they have a reputation to uphold as well. How can you be taken seriously if you give the public an inferior product? Whether you’re a bar or a brewer?
If you’re about good local beer, you need to support the good local beer and be honest about what isn’t good. Or local.
njg – I don’t agree that Fulton will definitely lose business b/c of Jon’s comments. Jon run’s a single bar and said he’s not serving their stuff anymore. Two casks blew up in his face. All of true statements. There are plenty more places around town one can grab a Fulton if they so choose. If you know any bar managers most are militant type-A people that don’t let simple opinions effect their choice for taps.
B/c he is in the industry makes a difference? I don’t think so. I count three beer reps for different distributors chiming in, I think their opinion weighs much more heavily than Jon’s. They talk to all bars, where, again, Jon is just one bar. I do understand your point however. It is a double standard though for someone to be able to crap all over a bar b/c they don’t serve whatever their favorite beer is and for a bar to say they aren’t serving a beer b/c of lack of quality control/goodness.
Who decides what is good and isnt? Some people love Budweiser and think Summit EPA is crap. Some people love Summit EPA and think Budweiser is crap. Some like IPAs and despise wheat beers, etc.
Scott-
LOL! Good enough? It’s adequate and I can live with it? That’s a philosophy to inspire and excel with.
The Fulton RIS isn’t even close to a RIS. It’s an average porter at best with very little stout character. The coffee RIS had so much coffee you could barely tell it was a beer and I couldn’t finish my small sample at Firkin Fest and neither could any of the other 6 people I was with.
And, btw, this isn’t Twitter with the @ shit.
Duke,
Good point. I guess ‘respective’ crap is a better word. If one beer is the best of a style some people may still think its crap. However its good for that ‘style’. A point of reference is usually needed. That being said, things can transcend reference and there can be nothing like it. If the beer tastes like there is a party in my mouth and everyone is throwing up old spiced cookies, that’s a bad beer.
As for the people ‘who’ decide what is good. Everyone has their own opinion. As to the references, I’d guess its people who have been all over the world, tasted more beers than most people could count, written extensively and are thoroughly educated in everything that is beer including tasting, history, production, etc etc. As most brewers can tell you, the labels of amateur and pro are just that.
How come we all beat around the bush so much here in MN? To me the beer world has a lot of similarities to the restaurant world. In the restaurant world people have free reign to go on Yelp or Urbanspoon or create their own Blog and criticize at will. Nobody goes after them or critics when they call out a bad restaurant/experience.
Why is it so bad to say you don’t like someone’s beers and that you aren’t going to support them anymore? We all do it everytime we go out to eat. We judge/criticize and sometimes post it on the internet for others to see. That’s why the majority of restaurants fail, because we don’t enjoy the product they created and then stop supporting them. If only competing restaurants could rent kitchen space from one another and cook there and then deliver & sell it through their “restaurant” it might delay the inevitable.
In the end the consumer will dictate which breweries will stay in business and which ones will not. But as consumers why is it so different to call out a brewery and say you don’t like their products like we all do in the restaurant world?
Duke-
Stop being relativistic. Just stop.
Bud & Miller are what they are and they’re good examples of that style. So is Summit.
We all like different things, yeah, whatever. That’s not the argument and to raise that straw main is just muddying the water and serves no purpose.
Some people think skunked Heineken is good and like it. That doesn’t make it good or right.
Duke, I would imagine that if people spent their money on a pint of Fulton SCOV, they probably like IPAs. And, if you like IPAs, you know that they definitely all have their own character, despite being the same “style”. I think it’s also understood that not all IPAs are going to taste the same. However, if people who like IPA are not thrilled with what Fulton is putting out (and I can say that I personally haven’t been thrilled with it), there’s probably a problem there that Fulton will want to look into. My take is that the Fulton IPA has a bit of an off taste to it, almost as if the water used to make it isn’t all that great. Either that or the beer is not fresh. Not all IPAs have to be extreme like Furious, but the hops almost seemed to go missing in SCOV. Unfortunately, it was just kind of boring and not really worth the money when there are better products available. I would love to be able to support Fulton, as I like the idea of what they want to do, and the guys have been very nice when I’ve talked to them. However, I’m not going to order a SCOV again unless it undergoes some serious improvements to at least make it a notable beer.
I am not a beer expert, I am just someone who really likes beer and makes a point of trying as many different ones as I can. I used to be really into wine because there was so much complexity in the flavors and differences from winery to winery. However, I have moved almost solely to craft beer now, because it’s amazing how much variety there is and how much it’s changing with each new brewer that enters the fold. So feel free to take my opinions with a grain of salt.
Kristen- I have to assume that there are plenty of bar managers who DO read MNBeer and BA, and will definitely pay attention to what’s been said by Jon, on behalf of Stub & Herb’s (one of the most well known/popular bars in the Twin Cities). How many? Who knows. I do stand by my statement that Fulton will lose business because of this, and whether that was Jon’s intention or not, it’s going to happen. To what extent, again, who knows. Relatively speaking, this is a SMALL community of folks, and this is something that is going to be talked about for a while.
(And then again, maybe it’ll make some bar managers want to support Fulton, too. The “worst beer contract brewed in WI” or not.)
njg – Perhaps it’ll be the kick in the rear that Fulton needs to improve their product? Numerous people have chimed in here saying their IPA is “ok”, and RIS is subpar. If they’re truly in the business to make good beer, hopefully this will be a jumping off point.
Derek-
Ha! Good question and great post. Wish I could answer it.
There seems to be a lot of personal investment by some people in some breweries. And they bite.
Jason- Perhaps you’re right. And then again, I’m sure there’s plenty of people who really like SCOV and wouldn’t want it changed at all.
I have no business ties whatsoever to any beers, bars, or anything related to the brewing industry. I have no personal ties with anyone mentioned in this thread. This post just struck a nerve with me because there’s a lot of sub-par beers brewed in MN (and yes, contract brewed in WI) and it just did not seem necessary for Jon to call out ONE SPECIFIC BREWERY as being among them.
Joe Sixpack’s (pardon the pun) post about Fulton not really being local (and follow up about their beer being no good) isn’t going to warrant a post on MNBeer.com. This is different than getting home from a restaurant and posting on Yelp that you didn’t like the food. It just is. Face it.
njg- lets not go overboard and call Stub and Herb’s “one of the most well known/popular bars in the Twin Cities.”
I think we can agree that it is a bar and it is in the Twin Cities.
I often write hurtful things thinking I’m going to send them somewhere to show that I mean business. Writing it makes me feel better. After time passes, more often then not I decide I’ve already made myself feel better by writing it and I decide to delete it.
I agree you all are entitled 100% to have opinions on beers and local breweries. You should drink what you like and be able to express how you feel about what you LIKE. However it’s not necessary to let everyone know in a public forum what you don’t like. Let people form there own opinions before forming it for them.
I did like the letter Jon wrote but there really wasn’t a reason for Fulton to be mentioned. When you said “it was a goal of mine to support local beer as well as craft beer” & “All of the local breweries deserve more support from us at Stub’s” you didn’t start off with support instead you started off with hate towards a local brewery.
http://www.ratebeer.com/Beer-News/Article-757.htm
njg-
I completely agree with your subpar comment.
I think it would be great to be able to have an honest discussion about those subpar beers.
Many here, however, seem to think you have to be all sugar plums and candy canes. Tra la la. All MN beer is good beer. Puke.
All hail mediocrity.
Matt-
So…we all just keep our mouths shut and don’t talk about it? How very Midwest of you.
When is not being to have an open and honest discussion ever a good thing?
The attitude of only giving fluffy comments is going to get the TC beer scene no where. If we want the beer scene of San Diego, Portland, etc then brewers must be held to a high standard. When everyone is special then no one is. If everyone brews ‘good’ beers then it diminishes the fact how good the really good ones actually are. It amazes me at beer festivals to see short lines at Summit when the things they bring are always excellent and always have some sort of twist from the norm. If their beer was made in a different market, they would be thought of as good as they actually are. Everyone is great. Everyone is equal. Everything is good. That’s entirely not true.
Point of fact, getting better at brewing, or anything, doesn’t just come by repetition. Unless a brewery goes out of their way to learn and change the way they do things, nothing is going to change.